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	<title>Comments on: Principles vs. People</title>
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	<link>http://www.kleppinger.com/2010/01/principles-vs-people/</link>
	<description>Thoughts of God, Technology, Culture, Life</description>
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		<title>By: A good friend of Joel's</title>
		<link>http://www.kleppinger.com/2010/01/principles-vs-people/comment-page-1/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>A good friend of Joel's</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>QUOTE: &quot;His underlying position while leaving is that he wants to keep all the relationships that he has on good terms.&quot;

I think that when someone leaves a church over disagreements, you can&#039;t expect &quot;good terms&quot; to mean that the relationships will continue as they always have. There will undoubtedly be fallout. But I do think it&#039;s important to try to leave in a way where both parties still respect each other as decent, human beings even in the midst of disagreement. That being said, you do all you can, but you can&#039;t control the other party.

I think the problem is magnified when the disagreement is over issues that don&#039;t deal with disagreements over interpretation of the Bible, but instead deal with whether the Bible should be our final authority on the Christian life and what it says about Jesus being the only way for salvation. If a church refuses to teach these things (but isn&#039;t teaching the congregation otherwise), it may very well be that the people are generally &quot;safe,&quot; but I would be worried to death that many there would not be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>QUOTE: &#8220;His underlying position while leaving is that he wants to keep all the relationships that he has on good terms.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that when someone leaves a church over disagreements, you can&#8217;t expect &#8220;good terms&#8221; to mean that the relationships will continue as they always have. There will undoubtedly be fallout. But I do think it&#8217;s important to try to leave in a way where both parties still respect each other as decent, human beings even in the midst of disagreement. That being said, you do all you can, but you can&#8217;t control the other party.</p>
<p>I think the problem is magnified when the disagreement is over issues that don&#8217;t deal with disagreements over interpretation of the Bible, but instead deal with whether the Bible should be our final authority on the Christian life and what it says about Jesus being the only way for salvation. If a church refuses to teach these things (but isn&#8217;t teaching the congregation otherwise), it may very well be that the people are generally &#8220;safe,&#8221; but I would be worried to death that many there would not be.</p>
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		<title>By: A friend's wife</title>
		<link>http://www.kleppinger.com/2010/01/principles-vs-people/comment-page-1/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>A friend's wife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kleppinger.com/?p=85#comment-30</guid>
		<description>There is the passage of Scripture where Jesus is being questioned during his trial--Mark 15:55-62. The leading priests and the high council were trying to find people to testify against Jesus in his trial. False witnesses spoke and contradicted each other. Some men testified against him with a lie. Jesus apparently did not reply to these witnesses, because in verse 60 it says the high priest stood up and asked Jesus, &quot;Well, aren&#039;t you going to answer these charges?&quot; And Jesus still didn&#039;t reply. Then the high priest asked him, &quot;Are you the Messiah, the Son of the blessed God?&quot; To this, Jesus did reply! He said, &quot;I am, and you will see me, the Son of Man, sitting at God&#039;s right hand in the place of the power and coming back on the clouds of heaven.&quot; (Mark 15:62).

This might mean that in some (maybe many) situations, it is not necessary or helpful to speak out in opposition. But when it comes to the most important issues, you do need to speak up and take your stand.

I would also present a counterargument to the idea that the people at this church are generally safe. They may be, but there is also the danger that the church&#039;s silence on the central Gospel message, along with their refusal to address major cultural issues facing our society today, can gradually influence the congregation without their even being aware of it until they perhaps no longer find the Gospel as important as they once did, and because Scripture is no longer emphasized in the church, it is no longer emphasized in the congregational people&#039;s own lives as well. Isn&#039;t this very dangerous? Maybe even more so because the people aren&#039;t aware of it to begin with? They don&#039;t even know they are treading dangerous waters.

I guess my point is that a church can be harmful not only by what it teaches but also by what it refuses to teach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is the passage of Scripture where Jesus is being questioned during his trial&#8211;Mark 15:55-62. The leading priests and the high council were trying to find people to testify against Jesus in his trial. False witnesses spoke and contradicted each other. Some men testified against him with a lie. Jesus apparently did not reply to these witnesses, because in verse 60 it says the high priest stood up and asked Jesus, &#8220;Well, aren&#8217;t you going to answer these charges?&#8221; And Jesus still didn&#8217;t reply. Then the high priest asked him, &#8220;Are you the Messiah, the Son of the blessed God?&#8221; To this, Jesus did reply! He said, &#8220;I am, and you will see me, the Son of Man, sitting at God&#8217;s right hand in the place of the power and coming back on the clouds of heaven.&#8221; (Mark 15:62).</p>
<p>This might mean that in some (maybe many) situations, it is not necessary or helpful to speak out in opposition. But when it comes to the most important issues, you do need to speak up and take your stand.</p>
<p>I would also present a counterargument to the idea that the people at this church are generally safe. They may be, but there is also the danger that the church&#8217;s silence on the central Gospel message, along with their refusal to address major cultural issues facing our society today, can gradually influence the congregation without their even being aware of it until they perhaps no longer find the Gospel as important as they once did, and because Scripture is no longer emphasized in the church, it is no longer emphasized in the congregational people&#8217;s own lives as well. Isn&#8217;t this very dangerous? Maybe even more so because the people aren&#8217;t aware of it to begin with? They don&#8217;t even know they are treading dangerous waters.</p>
<p>I guess my point is that a church can be harmful not only by what it teaches but also by what it refuses to teach.</p>
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		<title>By: Misty</title>
		<link>http://www.kleppinger.com/2010/01/principles-vs-people/comment-page-1/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Misty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2010 16:18:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kleppinger.com/?p=85#comment-29</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m mostly just glad to know we aren&#039;t the only ones who have dealt with this. You may have noticed we haven&#039;t been around the past few weeks, and there are certainly reasons for that. We chose to take the same path as your friend, because, I guess, ultimately, we feel that the responsibility for dealing with the problems lies with the leadership. Unfortunately, in our case, we were never really afforded the opportunity to discuss the issues we had.

As far as what the Bible says about it, I&#039;m not really sure, either, but I can&#039;t really think of any time when the Bible provides the model of causing a lot of drama over something. I think it&#039;s somewhat destructive to go around spreading information about what&#039;s wrong with a particular church fellowship, especially because, in our case, we are leaving a place that is still doing good work for a fair number of people.

I&#039;ve also been asking a lot of questions about church practices in general, and for the time being we are involved with a home church community. I think the overall model of the church in the U.S. is pretty flawed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m mostly just glad to know we aren&#8217;t the only ones who have dealt with this. You may have noticed we haven&#8217;t been around the past few weeks, and there are certainly reasons for that. We chose to take the same path as your friend, because, I guess, ultimately, we feel that the responsibility for dealing with the problems lies with the leadership. Unfortunately, in our case, we were never really afforded the opportunity to discuss the issues we had.</p>
<p>As far as what the Bible says about it, I&#8217;m not really sure, either, but I can&#8217;t really think of any time when the Bible provides the model of causing a lot of drama over something. I think it&#8217;s somewhat destructive to go around spreading information about what&#8217;s wrong with a particular church fellowship, especially because, in our case, we are leaving a place that is still doing good work for a fair number of people.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also been asking a lot of questions about church practices in general, and for the time being we are involved with a home church community. I think the overall model of the church in the U.S. is pretty flawed.</p>
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